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v1.300 in development

TH development, bug-reports, suggestions, collaboration, etc...

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v1.300 in development

Postby Mordor » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:56 pm

OK, so there IS a way out of every problem : )
I kind of got tired of initiating all these v1.2xx in development threads, so now I won't have to worry anymore and will be able to release current versions freely
Hence 1.300 development thread

Given that, how about finally giving a serious approach to problems long overdue?
I'm talking about discussing class balance issues, item issues. Spells. Difficulty. Features.
Everything that needs to be fixed.
No quick workarounds, only good ol' plain hard *** work. No quick mentioning, only indepth analysis, bringing up problems.
Me - not closing my eyes to them existing, and together deciding on how to fix the flaws.
How bout that?

It doesn't in any way cancel out discuccions of things to add (items or features), just pointing out a more serious approach here.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby bue » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:55 pm

I will say that single player novas seem to be right around where they should be for single player. I say this because in the catacombs on doom while looking for the set, i think i would do the runs with 26-28 level spells and found that 5 seconds was just on the point of too efficient. I mean to say that I could start a fight with a boss pack of goat archers with a nova, warp over a wall, then wait the 5 seconds and warp back over to finish the job.
But trying it the other way, starting the fight with a nova, then taking care of the rest with other spells took about 5-6 seconds except that I would need to take some arrows or dodge a bit. This makes me think that deeper down that the extra hp and resists enemies have will make it worthwhile to use other spells than just the novas.

In multiplayer though, it is kind of like you say, not quite the huge damage spike that makes you just want to stand back to fire (Because of the double HP on multiplayer and damage resistance) but still fairly effective at handling most caster/mage type monsters that you land right beside before you nova (But i do find the damage a bit short in the crypt with 2-3 players at 33 Spell levels). If th2 does not keep to the schedule you expected once you finish your busy 2-3 month period i think playing with the gold amounts, nova spell damage, and nova cooldown in multiplayer would be a good idea.

I think the nova could go to 8 seconds in multiplayer, but like i said about the mages in the crypt, it would be much more helpful to the party if you can completely kill the mage you nova instead of having it live with a few hundred hp and warp away.

So to be more in depth i think 1 second reduction on novas with a boost to damage that would maybe give an additional 150 damage ( if this number is excessive it can always be turned down, but i am not sure how caster monster resistance stands while also taking into account player resistance. 150 may seem arbitrary but i will use the assumption that 5 bolts hit the target, multiplying the stated damage in the spell book by 5. I think the extra 750 damage should give some of the more supportive mage builds the ability to effectively take out key targets in group play.

Right now im not sure how this new idea would work for other spells just because i find myself using almost every spell over and over in fast succession and would not want a cooldown on them. (Inferno would be a spell i talk about more in a future post)

The gold will be better because it would be easier to share with your pals. Example: I take one pile, you take the next. Currently, it is a little tough to see if another player will go for it or not. Not a huge deal to most I'm sure, but if nothing else it reduces the clutter of the dungeon floor.
------------------------
This new attitude towards issues seems like it will be a little bit slower but all around better.
I think it would be best if people could talk in depth on particular uniques to see what it would take to adjust it to a contendable end game unique. I am sure mastereo has a couple scout uniques to discuss :P.

I talk to a tunngle player frequently who is korean, so i can ask him to tell me what the korean forum has to say about particular items in question. I think it will be necessary to get more combined feedback on items to balance them properly. It would be great if a russian-english player could do the same.

Not sure if there would be enough patience for that method but when i see new unique suggestions it kind of gets buried, someone will make 7 scout ones, ill make 6 mage ones and then no adjustments are made if they are not perfect on the first attempt. If only 2 items would be adjusted and worked from the ground up, it seems like it would be a surefire way to add another item.
Last edited by bue on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:52 pm

Well, i keep thinking that many classes needs new unique items.

Why ?

Because a flaw of the equipment system is that many top-tier base items don't have unique items.

You may ask : and so? What's the problem ?

There is no problem, obviously. Blue items are a good alternative.

But farming unique items is rewarding and often very interesting. Not to mention that unique items allow us to create different way of playing, thanks to the malus.

Blue items don't have malus, so there is only a limit about things you can do.

Let's use a example :

if you need a bow...

BLUE WEAPON :

You are going to search a cristalline ethereal bow of doom. And you are done.

UNIQUE ITEM :

You find a very good bow. But wait a second, it also lowers your AC and fire resistance, so better modify my equipment to fix the problem. But what item should i use? This helm raise my fire resistance but my previous helm gave me a far better AC bonus...

and so on.

You get what i'm trying to say ?

Unique items offer a greater variety of way of playing the game.

-----------------------------------------------------------

" I am sure mastereo has a couple scout uniques to discuss :P. "

Well bue, i already made more than enough suggestions on scout uniques. My work is done.

If you like it, that's good. If you want to modify my suggestions, be my guest. If you want to completely ignore those suggestions, it's ok even that :vhappy:
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby bue » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:55 am

Just a quick disclaimer that I have yet to use an end game scout build, I mostly played purgatory glass cannon builds for heavy damage, so input will be lacking in some aspects.
Also, the following post kind of relies on "Random Speed Arrows" changing in 1 or 2 ways. 1 way that is most important is that it will overshadow other attack speed affects, even fastest attack speed (if you have random speed arrows, you gain no benefit from having an item with faster/fastest attack speed). The 2nd way would be for the base attack speed to be moved up to be the speed of "Quick" or "Fast" so that it does not take the character too much time to be stuck in the firing animation in order to react a bit faster. But also never reaching "faster" because at that point the negative of having multiple speed arrows is almost removed. The justification for this does not seem radical because of how very few items in the game possess the effect, and far fewer people rely on uniques with this affect to date.

I took a look back on just the bows for today on the 1.206 suggestion page. From the ones you mastereo I picked the one that i honestly think would provide the most different play-style adaptation. The reason for my thoughts come down to my brief experience using "Random speed arrows" and thought it was hilarious, but in a weird way complex if you carry it through with end game in mind.

Time where you would want to single out a target before changing positions/focusing on another target takes a varying amount of time. This is good an bad, good that a quick reaction time can pay off a little bit and for those who can reasonably count the damage of their arrows would be rewarded by not having to see the monster die, but rather knowing that x number of arrows more will kill the enemy, then knowing they can switch focus. Its bad because despite huge bonuses to damage, it could very well take longer to kill the key target.

No longer could you have the certainty of killing a ranged mage, bat, or archer by hitting it before the monster could pepper you with shots. It would likely take a bit more planning considering that you would have to set up to be a step ahead of the monsters, and for the times that you aren't you may just get lucky and whip out 2 fastest attack speed arrows in a row. When playing melee classes like the assassin, I find that being consistently inconsistent (Super high AC, but low hp) is so much more of a hastle than picking a lower quality (Balance of DFE, HP, and leach) well rounded package, but that is where I think a stat like this should be given a huge bonus.

Balance/Synergy - Much like running a no resistance build gets huge bonuses, this effect would not have to worry about the stacked effects players might get by using multiple "- X% resist" items or "Lose all resistance" items. This is a huge benefit that may warrant another version of the unique made available, to make sure it does not waste that opportunity (Perhaps one version having high damage, the other having high mana). As there currently are no unique Elite Bows or Ethereal Bows, I think it would be fine to appear as either one, but if it did, maybe best to have a QLVL of 63 so that it does not saturate drops found on late purgatory. I would lean more for this bow type because it would make the build a bit more constricting, making it harder to fill in the negatives the gameplay gives. A cut to maximum HP would help likely make it playable, but still require a different way of playing (Unlike Losing all your resistances, where you just get fucked despite playing differently). 40% of HP converted to mana means that there would be no real way to get around having lower HP to work with, while still aiding in giving the necessary mana to funnel enemies through fire/light walls, or using golem more frequently. Following this line of though, I did not like the fire damage, as it makes it into a situational bow more-so than an item you branch your build around.

With 800% enhanced damage and +200 damage being the max potential, it would sit about 350 damage above the high end unique bows, though part of this is required to accommodate the lack of faster/fastest attack speed. It may still lack too much damage and hp to be viable. Also, I take into account that ethereal bows have a huge stat requirement (Need 25 strength, 4 dex, and I think 25 Vitality more than the maximum Scout stats) which I consider to be similar to the "Dark Moon" bow with its -20 to dexterity penalty

"1- Fire arrows damage: 45...70
2- 10% chance for doing +200% damage
3- +300...500% to Damage
4- Unusual Durability = 10
5- Random speed arrows"

Proposed Tweaked Version:
Ethereal Bow (Qlvl 63)
1. +700% - 800% Enhanced Damage
2. +50 - 200 Damage
3. Random Speed Arrows
4. 40% of HP converted to Mana (Need an end games scout opinion on this figure)
5. 1-260% damage (Could be dropped depending on how much of a buff/nerf it needs)
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:00 am

" 4. 40% of HP converted to Mana (Need an end games scout opinion on this figure) "

I would not use that. But is only my humble opinion.

The problem is that Scout does not have a lot of life, and Doom monsters can kill you in max 3-4 hits. (And i don't want to talk about doom Horned Deaths, these guys are killers )

If you decrease your life of 40% , you will make the game so much unforgiving for a scout player. Most likely a scout would die with 2 hits, 3 if you are lucky.

The result would be a bow that only a few crazy people ( like me probably...) would use, because not evrybody like a bow that makes you truly a glass cannon.


Remember : scout max hp is 260.

40% of 260 is 104 ---> your base hp is reduced to 156. On doom. Against things like Horned Death, Illusion weavers, corrupted order , warping demons, and so on. And you can't increase your hp, because 40% of the total goes to mana ( example : if your items give you + 200 to life, only 120 hp are added to Your base 156. The result is 276. What are you goingto d with less than 300 hp ? )

See my point ?

If you touch Scout's hp, you will up the challenge to insane levels. And not evrybody will be willing to do that.

Me? I would do it, i like challenges.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby Mordor » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:10 pm

Seriously? +[700-800]% ED is a +4 item power, +[100-150] damage is another +1, fire damage is another +1, that begs for -4 equalizer to even out the odds. Like -85 to AC or -90 to DEX.
Keep that in mind...
40% life to mana or random speed arrows don't count as minus. They're more like zero.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby bue » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:29 pm

Actually Scrap this idea, not much point in it if the random speed arrows do not limit maximum attack speed.

Ethereal Bow (Qlvl 63)
1. +700% - 800% Enhanced Damage
2. +50 - 200 Damage
3. Random Speed Arrows
4. -70 Dexterity
5. -80 - 90 HP
Last edited by bue on Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby Mordor » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:17 pm

Alright, now it's OK.
Let me ask you though. How is it different from Riphook then? You have to agree that they look very similar.

And on a side note, adding a unique ID to a base item would require creating a whole line of uniques on it. Usually, 5 to 10 is a good idea. Not just one.
That's the method behind my adding them in bulk.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby z0diac » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:56 pm

Please check the Gladiator's Healing thing or tell me what can I do to provide you with some actual numeric data. It's really not balanced IMO because of reasons I mentioned earlier, I'm sure you remember them. :mrgreen:

Another thing is the gold. I still feel that there's a bit too much of it, but not as over-the-top as it was before. The reduction in drops is the right thing and I would still reduce them a bit further, maybe -33% or so. Then maybe add +35% to gold drop amount to compensate but still arrive at an almost 10% reduction overall.
I'm still loaded with gold and don't really use it for much of anything other than repairs and the odd buy from shops. Then again I'm only starting to scratch the door of early Purgatory with almost all characters and may run into trouble later on. On the other hand I haven't needed to farm for gold by doing e.g. Defiler runs.

There's also the psychological aspect of seeing all those small piles of gold which might add up to significant numbers but don't really matter singularly, encouraging you to skip them. The boss drop is the opposite, it's a single healthy stack and much more rewarding than the boring task of picking up tons of small gold piles along the way. The gold shrine is the same as you have to get the small stacks out of the way to make room for other stuff, but the amounts are much more significant so I happily take some time to click on even 35+ stacks to rearrange muh inventory. :mrgreen:

If there were more ways to spend gold, adding those would be really cool too. I don't know if it's possible, but expanding Griswold's inventory and maybe making Wirt offer (*gasp*) TWO items could make things more interesting and encourage shopping more often. Then again they are both limited by the max ILVL in place, so top items from them are strictly jewelry and perhaps some non-top-affix requiring weapons and possibly shields. Full Plate Mails are one of the few possible top items but they suffer from not being able to have top affixes like Sturdy, Defiance and Sacred. Same goes for Great Staves.

Again, I hate to do this as I'm not really creative and don't want to force myself into it either, but if anyone can come up with new items with Multishot (non-bows) and with the 40% life into mana effect, it would be cool. Currently there aren't too many and I think Mana Shield builds really want to have the latter.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby bue » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:55 pm

I guess i expected random firing arrows along with lower hp to make siuations you could go shot for shot with ranged enemies would play out a lot differently. Of course thats also with the assumption that it cannot raise attack speed to the point of faster or fastest, whereas with riphook you can put on seeker of pain or yeqons curse to get fastest attack speed.

Maybe a bit less of a difference is that ethereal bows take additional 25 strength just to wear and more dex and viatality, riphook only has dex. I did not know about the 5 item requirement for a new set, but thats ok. For now its one unique, i am sure more will come in the future, no rush. (Maybe unique linked plates will be something needed like alleria commented on in the 1.206 forum suggestions)

But yeah from here out ill need to adjust my stat margins, when i put 800% damage, i thought 330% is one stat worth because that is the max crystalline can be.
Last edited by bue on Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:51 pm

What about a ethereal bow :

1- Unusual Damage ( 500 )
2- + 35...55% to all resistences
3- Knockback
4- +8...15 DFE
5- -25 to all attributes

Average damage, but interesting for a scout focused more on defence and less on damage
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby Mordor » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:02 pm

its base damage is 48-111
you suggest 500-500

now, 48+111 give us around 160
and your bow gives us 1000

now divide 1000 by 160 and get all the item power minus that you will have to compensate for that
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:05 pm

Well, then let's make it double.

96 - 222

That should not make it too strong, afterall you have a -25 to all attributes ( that may be a bit too high )
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby Mordor » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:52 pm

Uniqe item talk still lacks precision.
I'll try to focus on one thing at a time.
Zod, give me info on Glads healing. And what you suggest.
I'll fix this next time I'm working, will upload 1.210 and you'll then be able to test the work.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby bue » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:00 am

masterteo89 wrote:1- Unusual Damage (100 - 200)
2- + 35...55% to all resistences
3- Knockback
4- +8...15 DFE
5- -25 to all attributes
Average damage, but interesting for a scout focused more on defence and less on damage


This item does have a "Black Defender" feel to it except that I like that it is made for an end game item. With the new damage being only about +100% enhanced damage, it sums up to about 4 full positive stats more or less. So to compensate I feel it would only require the "-25 to all attributes" because only one item can give that bonus in one effect in the game (A perfect "Belials Word") but because that item has additional DFE, I do not think many players would choose to use it in conjunction with this defensive bow. But if the -25 to all attributes is not enough, taking away 25 - 40 mana should be enough to offset it, instead of going for -26 to all attributes (At that point it would take 51 strength above what the Scout's max strength is, and that would take at least 3 affects in the build to reach).

I suggest the drop in DFE because I do not think it should end up like "Faceguard" which seems like a defensive item, but takes away a large amount of AC. Just kind of makes it counter-intuitive. Another way to go could be to make it an elite bow, just because the base amount of stats is not above the Scouts maximum.
_______________________________________________________________________
I agree with zodiacs comment on there being a need for more "multi-shot" and "40% of mp converted to hp" items. I am in the process of thinking up some basic uniques with these effects on them. I will start with just bangles/ring because no rings have multi-shot and only "Doom Serpents" has the conversion of hp to mp, so i feel that is an area that would need to be filled before other slots. Even if you do not like to think them up, even just saying which ones you think are headed in the wrong/right direction helps alot because I have not used mana shield on my scout yet.

But I'll post that after the current bow being discussed is finished instead of being unfocused.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby bue » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:30 am

I think a point on difficulty could be added to hiddens that occasionally try to attack you from behind instead of directly in front of you. This would be tough for scouts and mages to deal with and even a bit more challenging for melee classes to get back to the corner spots with hiddens in the way.

I dont think an AI adjustment like this should be made for the abyss or lower as hell has some doorways (3 space wide openings that seem like a transition in difficulty before the wide open nature of the crypt. Though the abyss is deeper and should be harder, i feel like it is very messy right now in that its difficult for a group to cover more than one angle where enemies come from. Also, the narrow passages would clog a little too much. Also, I do not think it belongs in purgatory as it may throw off people newer to the mod if the AI acts in a somewhat random fashion.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:07 pm

Talking about rings...may i offer you all my special ring :vhappy:


" Trophy of the Drunkard "

1- multishot
2- +45...56 to Vitality
3- - absorb 33% ranged damage
4- - 70% chance to hit
5- - 15 to AC

Why do i have in my mind this silly image of a drunken scout that fires 3 arrows per hit, because she can't tell the difference between 1 arrow and 3 arrows?

Ok, silly post. Forgive me.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:15 pm

Another ring...this one is not a joke.

A tribute to Starcraft 1 and a mean to use mana shield :


" Tassadar's zeal "

1- + 4 to spell levels
2- -33% ARD
3- + 250...320 to mana
4- - 250 to life
5- move 50% hp to mana

It shouldmake you with less than 100 hp but a big mana pool. Meaning that if you ugrade a lot your mana shield spell, you can use your mana shield as your best way to survive. The +4 spell level is to help you upgrade your mana shield
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby bue » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:30 pm

Though mages only have 189 Life at max, I think it may be a bit strong for mages to have this. It may not even be extremely strong because giving up a ring slot for it to have +75-100 hp would be throwing away an opportunity to wear a set ring or other unique. But even if the the -hp could be set to -290, then mages would never be able to abuse it (I do not think any +101 HP items exists that somewhat helps mages in another way, but I could be wrong). Also, I like it because if you get hit by undead you get fked more than just having hp so no other classes would use it besides scout.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:57 pm

Well bue, i made it thinking about a scout afterall.

You know, while i enjoy many classes, i can't help but thinking about my beloved scout class
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby z0diac » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:12 pm

Mordor wrote:Zod, give me info on Glads healing. And what you suggest.


Well, off the top of my head and quite simply:
For each point into VIT (ignoring SLVL and the +1 bonus),
    Paladin gets +3 HP and an average of +3.75 into life healed per one cast of Healing (rate = 1.25)
    Monk gets +2.5 HP and an average of +3.125 into life healed per one cast of Healing (rate = 1.25)
    Gladiator gets +3.5 HP and an average of +2.5 into life healed per one cast of Healing (rate = ~0.714)
In other words, every point you spend in VIT heals less life, unlike Paladin and Monk who get better over time. For what it's worth, Scout and Assassin match the 1.25 rate as well. This also means that to match this Healing rate the Gladiator's bonus should be 1.75. This is not taking into account his mana problems which exacerbate the issue further. He has low mana, a slow spell cast rate and slow mana regeneration. Also noteworthy is that if MAG is below 32, you do not regenerate any mana while attacking. This is often a big deal for the Gladiator even in late game. He also needs every mana point he can get so he can cast Fury which I see as the most desirable out of any class in the game.

I often find myself casting Fury, heading into battle and once Fury runs out I probably need to cast Healing that costs the precious 8 points of mana while not giving me full health, but I still need to recast Fury for the battle ahead. This is assuming I have the mana to begin with (potions become even more important here). At this point Paladin and Monk are way ahead as they have both the mana, the mana regeneration and probably full health or close to it from one cast of Healing. Not to mention Gladiator having lower MAG which means a lower Fury level which means a higher mana cost and less time under the spell, at least until finding good enough gear to max out Fury. He also cannot cast Healing while under Fury unless carrying relicts, but this is probably not relevant.

The simple yet effective solution is to buff Gladiator's Healing bonus up to 1.25 to match that of Monk's. It still isn't good enough because of the reasons stated above, but I think it's the first step to take towards fixing this. Later on a higher bonus could be implemented.

On that note, if you noticed my brief test of the Mana spell some time ago, the actual amounts don't go anywhere near the min-max value ranges stated in the spell book (Healing should work identically to Mana). Instead, what reads as "1-4" in the spellbook results in 2.5, give or take about 10% in either direction. In other words, average life healed by Healing is around 2.5 times the lower number the spell book states and never gets even close to either the lower or the higher value.
Jarulf's mentioned this as the iterative function not working properly in these cases. I assume it's simply a flaw in the game engine, but it's possible I haven't tested it enough to reach the ends of the bell curve he mentions in the expected distribution of the values. Then again I'm fairly confident this goes back to the same thing as with the blocking bonus experiment and is just another demonstration of the game's limited RNG behavior.
It's not a big deal as the average is still the same, I'm saying this as the spells.xls file and the change log state that the spell book values for Healing are correct. :mrgreen:

Maybe it was intended that the Gladiator doesn't have as good a Healing power as other classes as he's poor with spells and has a lot of HP and life regeneration to begin with, but I still think his Healing could use a tweak. The counterargument to this is that maybe he's exactly supposed to be much better than any other class with it as his spell potential is extremely limited.
The other thing with Healing is that SLVL usually plays a redundant role. For lower CLVLs the mana cost doesn't matter because almost always it will be at the minimum cap of 8, and later on most classes will have the max SLVL of around 10 anyway. +1 SLVL equals +1 VIT in terms of life healed (Paladin has a factor of 1.5 and Monk 1.25 but this is negligible). The most important aspect of Healing SLVL is to counter any -SLVL you may have in your gear (and from Fury with Paladin and Monk). I'd say that regardless of this not being Diablo 2, Healing is the #1 one point wonder spell out there. Even better than Town Portal or Teleport.


TL;DR :mrgreen: - I would raise Gladiator's Healing bonus to at least 1.25 at first and see how that works, but to achieve parity with other classes it should be 1.75. I could see it being 2 or even more so that he would get basically full health from every cast, but that's up for debate.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby bue » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:53 am

@mastereo: Yeah that is a good thing though, if an item is made to help one class, it usually has no balance issues because you only have one or two classes to watch out for overpowered synergy. With Tassadar's zeal, I think it does a good job of blocking other classes from abusing it. It is one spell level above what would balance it to be around 2 stats worth of affixes, but if it were +3 spell levels is still a big boost to spells for a scout.
____________________________________________________________________
Disclaimer: the following suggestions do not treat multi-shot with the same value it had now that fury gives +100 damage more than it did before. Also, there are not a ton of unique rings with 1-260% damage so I tried to toss that in to some ideas.

I don't think all this many multishot items should come into the game, just tried to mix "multishot" and "40% of mp converted to hp" in alot of directions to see if any seemed like they would actually see play.

1. Multishot
2. 1-260% damage
3. -10-15% chance to hit (to dissuade gladiators from using it, if players still think that they are too efficient with a bow, otherwise this negative is not needed).

1. 40% of hp converted to mana
2. Multishot
3. +35-50 mana

1. 40% of hp converted to mana
2. Fastest hit recovery
3. -3-4 strength (i do not think the negative is needed but in case it is, this would just make the requirement of precision bows 3 or 4 higher, regardless, you need to have some item with additional strength as a scout)

1 - 40% of hp converted to mana
2 - + 3-4 to all attributes (Would be a good way to get the extra 1 strength required to use precision bows without having to really sacrifice another whole stat to get it.
3 - 1-260% damage
4 - +2-3 DFE (could be increased if the additional stat points of this item are good)

1. Multishot
2. -40 -50% chance to hit
3. Faster attack
4. - 4-5 DFE (can be changed to a smaller buff, i do not know how much "faster" would be worth on a ring slot, but think there are not many options for it besides velocity ring, except thats more made for every class, not scouts in particular)

1. Multi-Shot
2. +25 - 35% resist all

1. 40% of mana converted to hp
2. +25 - 35% resist all

1. Multi-shot
2. +5 to strength (Seems like small boosts to stats are also fairly rare, found mostly on set items )
3. + 5 to dexterity
3. +26 - 30% to fire resist
4. +26 - 30% to lightning resist
(I think it would pair well with Quaxors Cover)
_____________________________________________________________
On a different note: I feel like "Ring of Lore" can be written over with a new ring, or that it needs a buff. It makes sense that unique rings can have +4,5,6, or even +7 spell levels, so giving a options for each makes sense. Currently, I think only ring of bargaining and it exist to give +4 spell levels. Maybe a bonus of "fast hit recovery" or "resist all +15 - 20%"
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:34 am

Ethereal bow :

1- +% ToHit, +% Damage: 42...74
2- Knockback
3- 10% chance of doing + 200% damage
4- fire random speed arrows
5- + 5...12 to all attributes

Was thinking about a bow , without malus, that gave small bonuses. Something like items like Leviatan's cage, that give nor malus nor big bonuses.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

And now, 2 elemental Ethereal bows :

1- fire arrow damage 75...120
2- fastest attack speed
3- 85% max fire resistance
4- - 30 Dexterity
5- - 2 to spell levels

-----

1- + 21...54 chance to hit%
2- lightning arrows damage 45...63
3- 85% max lightning resistance
4- add 180...250 points to damage
5- Lost all regeneration
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:52 am

On a side note, i would like to focus on this helm.

Jaws of Dragonsouls :

1- 33% ARD
2- -48 DFE
3- hit steals 2% mana
4- +55 mana
5- -41 AC

-----------------------

The idea behind it is good, but i can't figure out which kind of class should use it.

I think it's made for a gladiator, but if so...why bonuses on mana ? Wasn't it better to steal 2% life instead of mana?

Anyway, intersting skull cap so, here's my idea for a " brother " of this helm, meant for a scout ( or assassin ) :

Visored Helmet ( so it's base AC is more or less 20, that will add to the AC bonus )

1- +34...47% lightning resistance
2- +21...40% magic resistance
3- + 63...89 to life
4- + 26...42 to AC
5- - 150...210% chance to hit
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby kiros_winstone » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:09 pm

masterteo89 wrote:Another ring...this one is not a joke.

A tribute to Starcraft 1 and a mean to use mana shield :


" Tassadar's zeal "

1- + 4 to spell levels
2- -33% ARD
3- + 250...320 to mana
4- - 250 to life
5- move 50% hp to mana

It shouldmake you with less than 100 hp but a big mana pool. Meaning that if you ugrade a lot your mana shield spell, you can use your mana shield as your best way to survive. The +4 spell level is to help you upgrade your mana shield


Interesting ring, and I like items that introduce new builds and add versatility. I feel like monks are very underwhelming, while scouts and gladiators have an abundance of items to play around with.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:49 pm

Ethereal bow :

1- + 30 to all attributes ( better than a zodiac ring)
2- + 60...95 to mana
3- + 80...135 to life
4- - 40 to AC
5- unusual damage ( 24 - 55 , half of a base bow ) or -90% to damage

The idea is of a uncommon bow that greatly boost your stats ( attributes, life and mana ) but at the cost of your AC.

Plus, the low damage output force you to equip other items in order to deal enough damage to survive on Doom.

I think it could be a nice addition to the game. Scout needs some equipment for defensive kind of builds.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby bue » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:44 pm

New Base shield for mages:
I've brought this up a few times in the past but i think i made inappropriate suggestions that were only band-aid type solutions to the issue of end game mages having almost nothing to use besides Jokers Folly shield. (Used to have a rust mirror but that got nerfed)

So instead of trying to plaster unique shield ideas for chaos shields, or trying to make unique weighted shields that would all have "No Strength Requirement". I will suggest what i think will be much better moving forward.

Making a new shield for mages will make it so people do not need to go to purgatory/normal mode just to try and find X chaos shield of the void. Now +15 magic does not hold the same value it did before the holy bolt rework, but a large number of mages will likely continue to use joker's beak, maintaining the need for shields with bonus to magic. Also, blue stats do not currently encompass what a supportive mage might need, something like -25% mana requirement or +100 mana would be nice but it seems like it would be easier to just make uniques on a new shield base than to try and make a separate line of affixes for mage shields.

Stat requirements: could be 90 dexterity. If you need a reason that a mage may need dexterity to hold an orb of energy or a skull in his hand - Balancing the power so it does not spill out in a chaotic mess.
I do not think it should have strength requirements as it would devalue the unique sorcerors plate ". """""
I do think it should have a high magic requirement. This will help with balancing it so that paladins cannot abuse the effects of these shields.

Positives: the shield graphics can be much different than normal shield graphics. I would imagine it would mean less shield looking graphics would need to be used on these offhand. Instead of having glimmering shields all with nice visuals, the new base items can resemble something much less shield-like. I see a few potential graphic paths:
1. Use a ceremonial orb/ornament - this keeps the theme of the mage similar to what we see him wear in the game ... a pink bath robe.
2. Severed head/limbs/obscenities - would look like a necromancer shield from d2. Would maintain dark/bloody atmosphere.
3. Energy orb/s - personally like this one the best because its an excuse to give uniques a neon color, and making new uniques could be as simple as changing the same graphic from neon blue to bright orange. Understandably people may not like this option because d3 has similar offhands.
4. Totems or figurines - would not indicate that the mage is something it isn't, like a necromancer, just kind of plain looking.

If this idea is made i would probably redo alot of the uniques i suggested in the past as many of them had a high magic stat (25 or more) just to try and make for a reasonable way to handle the undead). Now that holy bolt is based off slvl, i would suggest uniques that give other benefits not currently found on shields.

I would probably not suggest uniques with additional spell levels, i can tell that since pelta-lunata is the only shield in the game that gives spell levels that it is probably that way for balance issues.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:54 pm

A pair of unique ideas based on mythological creatures :

A- Sesshōseki ( Ethereal bow )

1- +30% light radius
2- 10% chance of doing 200% damage
3- +310...330% to Damage, -85...95% to Durability ( Crystalline )
4- + 25...47% chance to hit
5- - 180...243 to life

For who do not know it, search Sesshōseki on wikipedia :vhappy:

In short, it's a very poisonous stone sayd to be able to easily kill any human being. That's why i gave this name to an Ethereal bow focused, as you can see, on dealing precise critical hits. But because it is evil, it desire also your death so you get a -180...243 malus to your hp.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

B- Rusalka's gaze ( amulet )

1- + 25 to AC
2- + 85% max magic resistance
3- fastest attack speed
4- -30 STR or - 10 to all attributes
5- - 75% lightning resistance

An amulet based on the slavic evil water nymph. Water nymph means she hates lightning, so you got your first malus. Second malus more or less is needed because of the fastest attack speed bonus
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby kiros_winstone » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:26 am

bue wrote:New Base shield for mages:
Now that holy bolt is based off slvl, i would suggest uniques that give other benefits not currently found on shields.



Was this a remedy fix for holy bolt? I didn't see anything in the changelog about the formula being changed
There most definitely needs to be an introduction of new shields for mage, as it stands Joker's Folly is the only elite tier item in this regard.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby <Quasit> » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:11 pm

bue wrote:New Base shield for mages:
I've brought this up a few times in the past but i think i made inappropriate suggestions that were only band-aid type solutions to the issue of end game mages having almost nothing to use besides Jokers Folly shield. (Used to have a rust mirror but that got nerfed)

So instead of trying to plaster unique shield ideas for chaos shields, or trying to make unique weighted shields that would all have "No Strength Requirement". I will suggest what i think will be much better moving forward.

Making a new shield for mages will make it so people do not need to go to purgatory/normal mode just to try and find X chaos shield of the void. Now +15 magic does not hold the same value it did before the holy bolt rework, but a large number of mages will likely continue to use joker's beak, maintaining the need for shields with bonus to magic. Also, blue stats do not currently encompass what a supportive mage might need, something like -25% mana requirement or +100 mana would be nice but it seems like it would be easier to just make uniques on a new shield base than to try and make a separate line of affixes for mage shields.

Stat requirements: could be 90 dexterity. If you need a reason that a mage may need dexterity to hold an orb of energy or a skull in his hand - Balancing the power so it does not spill out in a chaotic mess.
I do not think it should have strength requirements as it would devalue the unique sorcerors plate ". """""
I do think it should have a high magic requirement. This will help with balancing it so that paladins cannot abuse the effects of these shields.

Positives: the shield graphics can be much different than normal shield graphics. I would imagine it would mean less shield looking graphics would need to be used on these offhand. Instead of having glimmering shields all with nice visuals, the new base items can resemble something much less shield-like. I see a few potential graphic paths:
1. Use a ceremonial orb/ornament - this keeps the theme of the mage similar to what we see him wear in the game ... a pink bath robe.
2. Severed head/limbs/obscenities - would look like a necromancer shield from d2. Would maintain dark/bloody atmosphere.
3. Energy orb/s - personally like this one the best because its an excuse to give uniques a neon color, and making new uniques could be as simple as changing the same graphic from neon blue to bright orange. Understandably people may not like this option because d3 has similar offhands.
4. Totems or figurines - would not indicate that the mage is something it isn't, like a necromancer, just kind of plain looking.

If this idea is made i would probably redo alot of the uniques i suggested in the past as many of them had a high magic stat (25 or more) just to try and make for a reasonable way to handle the undead). Now that holy bolt is based off slvl, i would suggest uniques that give other benefits not currently found on shields.

I would probably not suggest uniques with additional spell levels, i can tell that since pelta-lunata is the only shield in the game that gives spell levels that it is probably that way for balance issues.


Only problem with that is, Mordor doesn't want to add new base items because of morphing. =(
Otherwise I would have suggested wearable books long ago (with built-in Mana increase or regeneration but built-in effects can't be implemented that easily either).
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby bue » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:28 pm

I made a post a few days ago pertaining to the paladin and gladiator end game balance and just want to say that version 1.210 may have somewhat fixed the power imbalance with the nerf to Baranaras Maul. I will need to play more with paladin friend and have him compare it to his gladiators performance (Currently he is 46 on gladiator so should not take too long)
__________________________________________________________________
Well bugger! Will have to continue to think of a reasonable work around. Following are some more ideas that go section by section to the triple check-mate going on.

1. Can't make new base item. (People would quit, totally understandable)

2. Can't give end-game stats to beginner level shields, only rarely will it be done, like with jokers folly. (Perhaps ideas could be made for more streamline stats, before I made alot of suggestions with +35-50 to magic. Instead, giving less of a stat buff, but more of a utility buff like "10% chance of 200% damage", "1-260% damage" , "Fastest Hit Recovery" or "40% of hp converted to mana" should help to not give players overpowered items in early to late purgatory. Basically to avoid -20 DFE on a shield found at the end of normal mode.

3. Can't possibly have a shield with more stat requirements that a Weighted Shield as then it would take too much dexterity even with "No Strength Requirement" (The only way this could be possible is if another stat existed on uniques with "Unusual Item Requirement" and then have something like a power or gothic shield have a dex requirement of 90) - This would only make it so an end game shield was not found early on in the game.
This would maybe reduce the clutter of putting all unique mage shields on one specific type of shield. But if this was done, some things would need to be taken into account while administering stats to them. For example, if this was done for a power shield, the shield would be like a weighted shield, except that it has "+ 6 AC".

4. These restrictions feed into the last point: Even if more exceptions could be made for more uniques weighted shield or heavier shields, they would all require one of their 5 possible affects to be "No Strength Requirement" or "Unusual item Requirements". This limit placed on items is not impossible to work around, but having only 4 stats to work with would either make new unique shields much more basic, in turn, requiring more uniques to be made with less extreme penalties.

A different issue to get around is balancing unique Rods of Blood Shaman that is two handed, into something that better matches the stats presented on Jokers Beak and Jokers Folly. I've brought it up before that Jokers folly gives roughly 2.5 - 3.5 stats (3 if you include the AC bonus you get compared to other shields). And only one effect on Jokers Beak gives the stats from the shield. It just makes sense that this will turn into baranaras maul all over again, people clutching on to the items that hold more stats than the others, even if they do confine you play a certain way.

So one way to go about this would be to give 2 handed Rod of Blood Shamans a combined stat total equal to that of the two jokers items, which would be 5 if you don't include the mana charges (At this point I think they should just come on staff/wands if space allowed for that). This too will create the issue labelled in part 4. above, unique Rod of blood Shamans may will be slightly more basic because effects would have to be bigger to fit the power level of 5 positive stats. Before I suggested that the base item of Rod of Blood shaman be given a different base stat bonus. But taking Quasits message into consideration it would be difficult to do that, not to mention it would be forcing players to have specific stats as their bonus that they may not care about like resistance to all.


It is a very difficult situation indeed, I do not know if some of the mage players have any ideas on what might be an easier option than what i wrote about.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby Mordor » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:17 am

we'll get there, friend. im not discussing it, but we'll get back to these posts to analyze them
I'd just first like to fix what i did with uniques. meaning some of them really go beyond 2 stat power, which really shows: people tend to use just these. use 4 items with power 3 and you have +4 effects! it's the same as having another 2 slots for rings. ofcourse players want that, but ofcourse it takes away from the game balance. so fixing that, (and improving blue item attractivenes as a side effect) comes first.
also, i have yet to see a feed from zod on new healing
when im happy with that, then i'll get to whatever is of the highest importance next. and im planning to stay there until it's well polished
thats the plan
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby Althea(LBL) » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:51 am

You INCREASED scout fury damage recently?

Did I read that correctly?

Reasoning?
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:22 am

You INCREASED scout fury damage recently?

Did I read that correctly?

Reasoning?


I may be wrong, but you could have sayd that in a better way.

I mean, your post sounds quite aggressive to me, and it is never a good way to start a discussion.

And...no, i don't want to mind my buisness, because evrything related to scout class is my buisness too, considering that i love that class.


Anyway...from changelog i read

Scout fury functionality revision. Now effects are as follows:
triple shot,
+2*CLVL to damage,
-CLVL to AC,
-CLVL to accuracy,
+CLVL/4 to DFE;

And in my opinion, there is no problem if damage is increased, because the malus are so great that i will think twice before casting fury. I mean, your AC at max level is lowered of 50 ( huge malus, considering that enemy archers have good aim). Also, you get a 50/4 = 12 or 13 added to your DFE.

So you get hit more often and damage you suffer is increased of 12 or 13. And for what ? For clvl50 * 2 = 100 points of damage ?


...my friend, fury will be a spell to be used only in a few selected situations now. And i like it.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby Mordor » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:08 am

Reasoning behind scout fury damage increase is that it used to become obsolete the moment you found an item with triple shot. It was the only gift from fury, all else was malus. Now it has a damage bonus and also it has higher ac reduction.

And your tone does show you're in a lot of strress :mrgreen:
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby alleria » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:20 pm

Now it is actually worth considering to choose between triple arrow item or fury, imho triple shot item is still better(gorget of the Huntress!!) It gives u triple shot, 50 AC, and 12dfe for a trade off of damage ( 70 points) and strength 24 or so. It is how I see it.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby Althea(LBL) » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:18 pm

"Reasoning behind scout fury damage increase is that it used to become obsolete the moment you found an item with triple shot."

Ok yeah that makes sense if the item with triple shot is worth having instead of another better item... For example there's a few ammys i like much better than gorget. So i like that design choice in theory but not really in practice.

100% agree with the ac reduction, nice work on that. (although no a very great malus in doom difficulty, as your ac is too low to tank hits anyway)
Last edited by Althea(LBL) on Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby Althea(LBL) » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:24 pm

Also sorry about not having the best tone. Did not mean to come across that way, was genuinely curious.

Have a lot of time invested in my scout playing with people MP and alone MP lvl 50 started 2009 so yes vested interest in design decisions.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby DoubtFuL » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:00 pm

One thing that could make The Hell better and more accessable is more detailed wiki. Many ppl often are curious about things such as: 50% dmg to demons + 50% dmg to demons, do they stack? and is this dmg for fighters only or works with spells as well?
Generally any kind of info regarding stats that isnt obvious would be good if mentioned in the wiki, this will make the game accessable to ppl that arent familiar with D1/TH but also ppl that used to play and now they have forgotten etc.
A detailed wiki just makes the game more complete.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:38 am

What about adding to some dlvl...

lone unique monsters ? Something like we already have in the first 4 dlvls with the unique grave digger and skeleton.

It would be nice to, i don't know... walk in the catacombs on dlvl 7 - 8 and suddenly find a lone unique blood spectre
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby alleria » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:01 pm

That sounds fine. Some changes that may give us few surprises when grinding. Those bosses could have AI changed e.g. fallen one boss with viper AI(charging and circling around) etc
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby bue » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:35 pm

I know ulzgoth or whatever he is called shows up without his boss pack fairly often on level 20 if the hive. But not a terrible idea for it to happen more often. As for the AI changes, i notice it happen from the spiders in the hive, one biss pack is set up to act at a range, while the other goes in to melee range as a normal mob of its type would.

Some goat people and ghost warrior boss mob charges at people as well as some goat people boss. Though i do enjoy these patterns, having it happen earier in doom couldn't hurt.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:09 pm

One thing that i would have always loved to see involved my favourite ghost knight.

I mean, you know Lachdanan quest ? The fact that in some gameplay you don't have that quest ?


Good. What i have always loved to see was that, if Lachdanan quest is not available ( because you already have other quests) then...

you face on a certain dlvl Lachdanan. I mean, in his quest you had to save him before the curse made him exactly like the other ghost knights.

But if you don't have that quest, we could assume that Lachdanan has been already corrupted by the curse.


And it would be awesome to be able to fight against the fallen captain of King Leoric's knights. It would be a great battle, because it would be reasonable to think that Lachdanan would be the strongest of the knight's kind of monsters.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:22 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjCG8tW ... e=youtu.be

Some could say that i'm shamelessly bragging, but that's not completely true. Let's say that i'm killing 2 birds with one stone.

Or to say it better : i'm showing you my most recent build AND i'm bringing light to an important question.

Double elemental damage. As you can see, in 24 seconds i killed Doom Diablo. Think about how great is elemental damage, and consider that i only have +100 lightning damage and +65 fire damage.

What if i add other items that add elemental damage ? Will i break the game with attacks that in 10 seconds kill monsters with 20000 or more hp ?

My base damage is 400 - 600, low afterall. 28000 hp destroyed in 24 seconds is all thanks to fire(65) or ligthning(1-100) added damage.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:05 pm

And now, THIS is abusing the power of double elemental damage. Just to keep showing my point, about how elemental damage breaks the game. (even if i enjoy it)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLgiO5BiqS0

My female paladin vs Doom Lord of the Order. I completely destroy him for 2 simple reasons :

1- he is strong because he blocks, but blocking too much makes you unable to attack. And he has no time to land hits on me.

2- Lord of the Order can block all my hits...but he can't block double elemental splash damage :vhappy:

In short, double elemental damage can be abused and can break the game in my umble opinion. That sayd, i won't spam any more videos on this thread, i showed my point enough.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby Mordor » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:14 pm

that's an effective way of dealing with him. double that damage, add hydras and a golem and it's still ok if u ask me - i see no gamebreaking
she has high dex, that's why she has more chance to hit with elemental damage
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby masterteo89 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:20 pm

Ah, i understand.

Ok then, i won't bring the elemental damage issue anymore if all of this was meant from the start.

On a side note, i'm satisfyed to have find an easy way to kill the lord of the order. Now i know that fallen paladins in Maiden of Anguish quest will be a pieace of cake.
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Re: v1.300 in development

Postby z0diac » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:45 pm

Mordor wrote:that's an effective way of dealing with him. double that damage, add hydras and a golem and it's still ok if u ask me - i see no gamebreaking
she has high dex, that's why she has more chance to hit with elemental damage


Wait, what? To hit also affects weapon elemental damage chances to hit? I thought it was a separate effect that has a fixed chance of hitting its target.

On that note, both Diablo and Lard of the Order are lightning immune so the double elemental damage doesn't really show its true power there. Fire is still very effective on its own, kinda like how ranged characters or the Mage can deal with Death Knights better than melee characters. In other words, every character or attack type is good against something.
Also there are very few monsters who are not immune to either fire or lightning. On Doom mode I don't think there are any.
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